Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club

General Discussion :: RE: USHPA II?

wild_high_mark — Fri, 30 Jul 2010 04:46:19 GMT

Author: wild_high_mark
Subject: Re: USHPA Sucks.. Back into the Fold
Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:46 pm (GMT -7)

FreeUSHGA wrote:

USHPA Sucks.. Back into the Fold
A Carrot and a Stick..

I figure that when they need me, they will seek me out.
I'll just sit over here (in Lakeview) and wait.

General Discussion :: RE: USHPA II?

FreeUSHGA — Fri, 30 Jul 2010 03:37:42 GMT

Author: FreeUSHGA
Subject: USHPA Sucks.. Back into the Fold
Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:37 pm (GMT -7)

USHPA Sucks.. Back into the Fold
A Carrot and a Stick..
--------------------
Posted by SG: Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:22 pm Post subject: #5
Mark.

Wait until you see how things are run with new leadership, and a new sense of energy with round 2. I have a feeling the chair will NOT put up with the nonsense and drama some people have thrown around in the name of history.

Im confident it will get squashed quickly.

The excitement is already building for me. Were about to start getting positive things done at LIGHTSPEED compared to try #1. That will revive your faith and suck you back into the fold

Bob, I suggest you go read the new elected chairs opening statements.
He's not gonna tolerate drama by TT members, even outside the HGAA forum. Fair warning.
-----------
Banned of Brothers
______

General Discussion :: RE: USHPA II?

FreeUSHGA — Fri, 30 Jul 2010 03:04:17 GMT

Author: FreeUSHGA
Subject: Brainstorm Dreams
Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:04 pm (GMT -7)

wild_high_mark wrote:

Not much interest on my part anymore, I'm no longer a member.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=199044#199044

You blame Bob for 'hating hang gliding' and I don't buy it.
You should be happy now with the military dictatorship of the new USHPA II.
No one noticed that I had dropped my name in the hat of founding members earlier and now it doesn't matter.

Meet the new boss..

Temporary HGAA forum rules
Posted by "knumbknuts" � Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:21 am

For the next three days, until August 2, 2010 at midnight, the hgaa.org forums are to be used only for brainstorming, for submitting ideas to the vote up mechanism, and for voting on action items that I have submitted.

Against the rules until then are:
- Referring to the events of this organization that took place before 7 PM July 29, 2010. There will be a time for that, it�s just not right now.
- Mentioning any other TT member by name in any manner that is not 100% complimentary and read as such by all. Quite frankly, I just wouldn�t mention anyone if you have any doubt about how it will be read. Quoting someone and then arguing against their point is off limits for this timeframe.

I reserve the right to modify these rules, end them early, or extend them. I apologize to those who find them insulting, that is not their purpose but I fear that might be a side effect. Quite frankly, it�s embarrassing to have to lay �em down, but it�s the only way I can be certain that we stop tearing down and start building.

I will look at any rule violation on a case by case basis and react in a manner that I believe will prevent it from happening again.

The more rules and procedures through the vote up system and get passed by the TT formally, the less I�ll have to keep an eye out, personally, for trouble.

Anyone can PM me, of course, with feedback, within reason.

Actions on other forums will be attributed to you, here. We�ve had enough Fredo Corleone shenanigans of late.

Ok, ridiculous pre-emptive tamp down complete, let�s get to the reason we are here and the fun part: let�s build!

I strongly encourage and would love to hear ideas and optimism. Dream again about what a great organization would look like. Think about what hang gliding needs, nationally, and at your hill. Just brainstorm!
=================================

Hold your tongue or pay the price!

Brainstorm dammit!

It's an order!

General Discussion :: RE: USHPA II?

wild_high_mark — Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:13:58 GMT

Author: wild_high_mark
Subject: Re: For the record
Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:13 am (GMT -7)

FreeUSHGA wrote:

another post that got shoved under the rug at HGAA.org

Not much interest on my part anymore, I'm no longer a member.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=199044#199044

I'm going BACK to supporting the sport of "Wind Sliding" for a few more years.

General Discussion :: RE: USHPA II?

FreeUSHGA — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 15:40:07 GMT

Author: FreeUSHGA
Subject: For the record
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:40 am (GMT -7)

For the record, another post that got shoved under the rug at HGAA.org

Now in the 'rule breaker' column at http://www.hangglidingassociationofamerica.org/forum/index.php

Bob K. wrote:

Members of the Transition Team and Members of the HGAA,

I'd like to start by thanking Hgaaflyer for his nomination of myself and all other members of the Transition Team. I hope we will end up being deserving of your endorsement.

On June 04, 2010 I posted a �Call for Leaders and Founders� on hanggliding.org, and that started the ball rolling toward the HGAA. It's been an interesting 54 days. Those 54 days have been full of great excitement and some terrible disappointments. Yet here we are, undaunted, and still trying to go forward. I thank everyone who's come this far, and I hope we can all keep going together.

Having said that, I feel that the HGAA is at a crossroads. We are no longer just one man's dream. We're now the melded dreams of many men and women who want to see a better organization to support our love of flight. I hope we will do just that. But we have some fundamental decisions to make, and I think these decisions will determine what kind of an organization we'll grow up to be.

As you may know, I was on USHPA's Board of Directors, and I attended 5 of the 6 USHPA Board meetings over the last 3 years. I've seen how their board operates, and I've seen what works and what doesn't work. From that perspective, I've come to believe that the greatest problem with USHPA has been a lack of insight by the general membership into what the Board does and how it does it. All of their other problems flow from that one single failing. So when I began contemplating a new national organization, I immediately thought about what we could do better. The list (as you might imagine) was pretty long, but at the top of it was accountability to our members. That means that the members should always know how we vote and how we conduct ourselves as representatives of the HGAA and particularly in all HGAA meetings and discussions. I think that is probably my primary goal for the new organization � transparency.

Well, for an organization with no money, that turned out to be easier than I might have expected. We live in the information age, and we've got forums and other on-line tools that allow us to hold �virtual board meetings� that are 100% visible to every member of the HGAA. What could be better? There's only one small hitch. The people who run the HGAA have to agree that what we say in these �virtual board meetings� will not (as in �NEVER EVER�) be touched or modified in any way. That's a commitment that I am willing to make. In fact, it's so important to me that I'm willing to make it a term of my continuation on the HGAA Transition Team, and a fundamental plank of my platform as Transition Team Chairman.

Finally, I'd like to comment that I fully endorse Scott Wise as Transition Team Chairman in addition to myself. In fact, if Scott does accept his nomination, then I will withdraw my own candidacy in support of Scott. I do this because I think that Scott has demonstrated the proper mix of authority and tolerance. This is a hang gliding association and it's made up of people who have a great deal of independence and self confidence. I believe our members would prefer a leader who respects that independence, and treats us with the respect that Scott has shown during his tenure as Transition Team Chair. Let's get back to where we were when we started and get behind Scott again to lead us forward.

Thanks,
Bob Kuczewski

General Discussion :: RE: USHPA II?

FreeUSHGA — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 15:13:06 GMT

Author: FreeUSHGA
Subject: Market Share and Target Audience
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:13 am (GMT -7)

Market Share and Target Audience

For the record, Ryan's idea of a group hug went down in flames and Ryan says he is out. Scott is banned and factions are formed but Bob K. continues to amaze me with his clarity, vision and principals.

People would do well to carefully listen to the points that he is trying to get across...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18295&start=100
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:03 am Post subject: #116

In a message to John Wright, the 'military' option candidate for Chairman of HGAA, Bob wrote.

John,

You've been a great friend to the Torrey Hawks, and you've been a great friend to me personally. But you can't treat a bunch of hang glider pilots like they're enlisted recruits in some branch of the military. You can't tell us what to do or throw us in the brig. That's not respectful to us as individuals. Besides, we already have an organization that treats its members like that. I think they're called USH something or other.

From a pure market segment standpoint, he HGAA will have to reach out to people who feel they've been pushed around by that "other" organization. The HGAA will have to offer a fresh and open flavor - not a heavy handed military style crackdown which ends up putting people in boxes.

More importantly, every time you put someone in a "box" you remove their desire to want to work to help the new organization. Take Scott as a perfect example. He's a smart guy and he's got tons of time on his hands. He could do a million great things for the HGAA, but now we've gone and turned him into someone who'd rather not hear our name. You guys are close do driving me to that point as well. What you're going to end up with is a few people with no time on their hands dictating what should be done to ... no one.

If the HGAA is going to survive, it will need to make people feel like they want to come here and contribute. I took a month off from my consulting job to help get the HGAA started. I was looking into insurance. I was looking into international ratings. I was looking into the Tandem Exemption. I was looking into voting systems. But with voting systems, I ran into a brick wall that wanted "Range" without any compromise for anything else. It was almost as if Range Voting was a religious belief. People blame me for 80 pages of discussions, but my posts were less than half of the posts from the fanatical Range supporters!!

But my big point here is that a "military style" of leadership will not appeal to people who are seeking an alternative to USHPA. It might appeal to those who are happy with USHPA, but they have no motivation to leave their warm nest for a new organization that can't offer anything different from what USHPA already offers.

If you don't want to think lofty thoughts about freedom and camaraderie, then think about mundane thoughts like market share and target audience. Either one will tell you that the HGAA must be a kinder gentler USHPA, and not a stricter, tougher one.

Thanks for listening.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders � Join the Torrey Hawks � Fly the Big O Loop!!

General Discussion :: RE: USHPA II?

wild_high_mark — Tue, 27 Jul 2010 16:29:03 GMT

Author: wild_high_mark
Subject: Re: Credit to Ryan Voight
Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:29 am (GMT -7)

FreeUSHGA wrote:

Good post by Ryan Voight, at the 'Band of Brothers' site.

HEY, I missed that discussion. I think I was busy on the OZ forum.
Thanks Warren!

AND that is the second reason that I did NOT object to Ryan on the TT.
Here is the first:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=196747#196747

General Discussion :: RE: USHPA II?

FreeUSHGA — Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:34:40 GMT

Author: FreeUSHGA
Subject: Credit to Ryan Voight
Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:34 am (GMT -7)

Good post by Ryan Voight, at the 'Band of Brothers' site.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18295&start=20
Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:11 am Post subject: #40
Oh my, we're having fun now!

My .02, if anyone is interested this late in the game:

Yes, Bob OWNED the thread on voting methods. 80+ pages... just to be able to vote on things.... yikes. But is anyone really surprised by Bob's behavior. I mean, Jack- you've aligned yourself with Bob in many debates, you've seen how he operates.

Is this the same crowd that elected and supported him within USHPA, now hanging him out to dry? This new org was formed BECAUSE Bob failed to work within USHPA...

You all are accusing him of the very same things I have been saying for years now- he comes here and tells very one-sided stories about how events took place. Except now you all know the 'other side' of the story... before it was just me sharing the 'other side' and you all ganging up on me as if I were trying to derail Bob for the fun of it.

But- back on track- as pretty much a bystander to the current events:
-I saw a thread spiraling out of control
-I saw someone step up and take charge (JB)
-The rules to the voting threads were clearly stated in the first post of those threads
-The rules stated were enforced to the letter
-Bob took exception to the rules
-People voted Scott (Wingspan) out?

There's a bit of a disconnect for me, in that last line... I can see the argument of why he was voted out... but who initiated that vote, and why? Other than Bob being Bob (what Chair has any control over that?!), what did Scott do wrong exactly... while he wasn't even there? I didn't see things burning down until Bob took exception to JB's actions, it was all downhill FROM THERE. I don't believe JB did anything wrong, for whatever that's worth...

I would also like to point out that 6 TT members voted to remove Scott, 3 voted to keep him... that's only 9 votes... how many TT members are there? I know I didn't vote (I stopped checking the forum daily after the polls)...

Locking the forums is an academic debate, whether SG had the right or not, I believe it was 'right' to lock the forums... but I also have to agree with Bob, that they are not SG's forums to lock, and it should have been a motion or vote. If everyone favored SG's actions, then it would have been easy to pass it as a vote.

Having been there, I also have to take exception to SG's derogitory posts towards Bob. He responds, pointing out lots of places where SG puts words in his mouth, speculates about Bob's thought's or intentions... having been there, I am offended FOR Bob...

Here's Bob's rebuttal: http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=198481#198481

Long, yes. But pretty to the point. SG responds with a warning? Who warns SG about all the mistruths he had just posted about Bob? I get that this site is SG's baby and all that... but to give Bob a warning and play the 'it's my livingroom' card?

SO- if anyone's even still reading this....

I think we're falling victim to differences in personalities. I think everyone is still trying for the same underlying goal... and that's what we need to focus on. If that goal is really, truly worthwhile, it should be cause enough to settle (or drop) these petty differences and move forward.

Let's stop voting like-minded people off the island. Stop alienating the most active and outspoken individual who STARTED this whole movement in the first place.

Let's start acting like we're all on the same team, and get some god damn work done!
_________________
Ryan Voight
BLOG: www.airthug.blogspot.com
VIDEOS: http://vimeo.com/user802494/videos

General Discussion :: RE: USHPA II?

wild_high_mark — Mon, 26 Jul 2010 19:46:32 GMT

Author: wild_high_mark
Subject: Re: Politics
Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:46 pm (GMT -7)

FreeUSHGA wrote:

You want what never was and never will be.

Guilty as charged!

General Discussion :: RE: USHPA II?

FreeUSHGA — Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:45:04 GMT

Author: FreeUSHGA
Subject: Re: Politics
Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:45 am (GMT -7)

wild_high_mark wrote:

What I believe that politics SHOULD be is they (the politicians) would ALWAYS increase the quality of my life.

You want what never was and never will be.

wild_high_mark wrote:

Love of money has ALWAYS been the problem,

A struggle for power has always been the problem.
The bankers have the power to create money out of thin air.
Obama just gave them more power and ALL of your money.
McCain would have done it too.

That's politics.

General Discussion :: RE: USHPA II?

FreeUSHGA — Mon, 26 Jul 2010 15:36:15 GMT

Author: FreeUSHGA
Subject: Setting Dennis Cavagnaro straight
Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:36 am (GMT -7)

Dennis Cavagnaro cracks me up..

exerpt:
---------
If Scott did this well that along with posting dirty laundry on the competitions web site doesn't speak well, If it was anyone else then we need to talk this through because that is simply too much power for one member of a ruling board trying to develop a new organization.

Can someone set me straight on this issue?

Dennis
Organ Donation Saves Lives
-----------------

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18295
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20889

Maybe someone can decipher what Dennis is saying here?

General Discussion :: RE: USHPA II?

wild_high_mark — Sun, 25 Jul 2010 19:11:18 GMT

Author: wild_high_mark
Subject: Re: Politics
Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:11 pm (GMT -7)

FreeUSHGA wrote:

I don't think we are working off the same definition of politics.

I am sure of it.
I see the "current" politics of this country as a "diversion" (smoke and mirrors) for the bankers ruining the land I live in.
Love of money has ALWAYS been the problem, they (bankers/ money-changers) just need a plausible facade to hide their activity. Politics works best.

What I believe that politics SHOULD be is they (the politicians) would ALWAYS increase the quality of my life.
They have failed.

General Discussion :: RE: USHPA II?

FreeUSHGA — Sun, 25 Jul 2010 16:51:56 GMT

Author: FreeUSHGA
Subject: Politics
Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:51 am (GMT -7)

wild_high_mark wrote:

I hate politics.

Mark,
I don't think we are working off the same definition of politics.
It isn't politics to tell you the house is on fire.
No comments on USHPA II, since you hate politics so much..

General Discussion :: RE: USHPA II?

FreeUSHGA — Sat, 24 Jul 2010 14:12:02 GMT

Author: FreeUSHGA
Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:12 am (GMT -7)

George Bush was bird cage liner for the new world odor just like Barry Obama. They are meant to be the scape goats for taking our country down and we are all supposed to play the fools of this left and right paradigm. Changing the cage liner isn't going to keep the bird from crapping on us.

General Discussion :: RE: USHPA II?

FreeUSHGA — Sat, 24 Jul 2010 14:04:04 GMT

Author: FreeUSHGA
Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:04 am (GMT -7)

wild_high_mark wrote:

I hate politics.

I don't like politics either. We can agree on that but hate of politics doesn't relieve us of responsibility to resist the evil that comes with it.
Poison in your food and water isn't so much politics as it is apathy of the poisoned. DO you enjoy being soft killed a little bit at a time? Do you like having the economy plundered for you and your children and a future of enslavement and death? Is that just politics?

General Discussion :: RE: USHPA II?

wild_high_mark — Fri, 23 Jul 2010 22:43:51 GMT

Author: wild_high_mark
Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:43 pm (GMT -7)

I hate politics.

General Discussion :: USHPA II?

FreeUSHGA — Fri, 23 Jul 2010 04:22:54 GMT

Author: FreeUSHGA
Subject: USHPA II?
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:22 pm (GMT -7)

Wow... I can hardly keep up..

The world as we knew it is being destroyed by design.
Our complicity of apathy, ignorance and denial allows an elite few to scientificaly re-engineer society. Our families are under attack.

We are being poisoned by design. Fluoride, msg, aspartame, corn syrup, genetically modified food, all the chemicals, vaccines, the massive amounts of pharmaceuticals being shoved down our throats... plastics..all designed to make us sick, dumbed down and lethargic..

A new hang gliding organization isn't going to mean much in the big picture if things continue as they are intended.

I wish I were better at getting the attention of those that I used to share the passion of free flight.. to let them know that their families are targets of a few that will first, enslave them, and then eliminate them. We are being soft killed as we speak and not enough will even stand up and demand that our drinking water not be poisoned..

The studies are in.. mass "medication' by ingested fluoride can only cause harm. The ADA has said to stop fluoridating babies but nothing changes. Fluoride water for babies is on the shelf at China central and all the 'Drug Stores'.... It's the tip of the iceburg... what are we all thinking???

Bob, I thought you would be sorry taking a month off work for a new organization. A noble idea but in the big picture, to what end? What is our answer to what we have accomplished when we meet our maker? You commented on this before.. My answer, if I die tonight, is that my life was a failure at communicating the perils encroaching mankind and society to others.. a total failure as far as I can see and I have been trying for a long long time.. all documented.. a lot 'dissapeared' but ask anyone that ever read or looked into the crazy things I have been posting for years.. the conspiracy nut that was right all along.. it's even worse that I have portrayed.. yet, in spite of the truths directly in front of our eyes.. denial... Rick Masters is touching on that phenomenon re paragliding. denial of the PDMC.. we all want to live in happy bubbles.. it's not just paragliders.

I'm going to just cut this post off in mid stream.
Make of it what you will.
If anyone feels info and links that I have provided over the years have helped them in any way, please speak up. One set of opened eyes and ears is all I ask so that I may at least answer the ultimate question that something was accomplished for all the effort and derision..

Warren

.